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	<title>Comments on: Mandarin: it&#8217;s Greek to me</title>
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	<description>Dave Ferguson&#039;s interests, ideas, notions, tangents</description>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.daveswhiteboard.com/archives/388/comment-page-1#comment-9241</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 11:50:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>John, you and the others in your office know a lot more about language learning than I do. Iâ€™ve also seen examples on Frenchpod and Chinesepod of people who are apparently semi-pro language learners (working on their fourth or fifth languages, say), so Iâ€™m not in their league, either.

With that disclaimer: I donâ€™t believe most people, especially after adolescence, learn a new language they way they learned their first. And thank God. Immersion may be an excellent method, but in childhood itâ€™s characterized by an enormous amount of enforced listening (because we donâ€™t know enough to reply), followed by a length period of trial-and-error.

Certainly thereâ€™s some level at which most students do need certain things â€” basic sentence structure, use of common verbs, present / past / future / imperfect / conditional (maybe in that order, at least in terms of when theyâ€™re introduced?)â€¦

Harless has been a big influence on how I think about learning problems (in a workplace sense), and so I hear him asking, â€œLearn a language for what?â€? As in, do you want to travel in Chinese-speaking places? Do you want to pick up a Chinese date? Do you want to read Confucius? Li Bai? The Little Red Book? Do you want to get a job with Praxis, or with Lenovo, or with Hutchison Whampoa?

Youâ€™ll still need to know how to put words together, but your date or your employer may not care that you know æœˆä¸‹ç?¨é…Œ. On the other hand, if they do care, theyâ€™d perhaps be interested to find over three dozen translations of &lt;a href=&quot;http://clatterymachinery.wordpress.com/2007/01/26/li-bai-drinking-alone-with-the-moon-his-shadow-32-translators/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Drinking Alone with the Moon.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, you and the others in your office know a lot more about language learning than I do. Iâ€™ve also seen examples on Frenchpod and Chinesepod of people who are apparently semi-pro language learners (working on their fourth or fifth languages, say), so Iâ€™m not in their league, either.</p>
<p>With that disclaimer: I donâ€™t believe most people, especially after adolescence, learn a new language they way they learned their first. And thank God. Immersion may be an excellent method, but in childhood itâ€™s characterized by an enormous amount of enforced listening (because we donâ€™t know enough to reply), followed by a length period of trial-and-error.</p>
<p>Certainly thereâ€™s some level at which most students do need certain things â€” basic sentence structure, use of common verbs, present / past / future / imperfect / conditional (maybe in that order, at least in terms of when theyâ€™re introduced?)â€¦</p>
<p>Harless has been a big influence on how I think about learning problems (in a workplace sense), and so I hear him asking, â€œLearn a language for what?â€? As in, do you want to travel in Chinese-speaking places? Do you want to pick up a Chinese date? Do you want to read Confucius? Li Bai? The Little Red Book? Do you want to get a job with Praxis, or with Lenovo, or with Hutchison Whampoa?</p>
<p>Youâ€™ll still need to know how to put words together, but your date or your employer may not care that you know æœˆä¸‹ç?¨é…Œ. On the other hand, if they do care, theyâ€™d perhaps be interested to find over three dozen translations of <a href="http://clatterymachinery.wordpress.com/2007/01/26/li-bai-drinking-alone-with-the-moon-his-shadow-32-translators/" rel="nofollow">Drinking Alone with the Moon.</a></p>
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		<title>By: John Biesnecker</title>
		<link>http://www.daveswhiteboard.com/archives/388/comment-page-1#comment-9240</link>
		<dc:creator>John Biesnecker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 02:17:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;em&gt;To me, this is another example of a covert discrimination â€” Joe Harlessâ€™s term for an apparently simple case (â€?learn a languageâ€?) that conceals a number of different situations requiring different actions.&lt;/em&gt;

This is a discussion we&#039;ve been having at the office -- how much of any language learner&#039;s needs, regardless of their goal, is the same? I tend to think that every language student through at least the intermediate levels need basically the same things, and only as you reach higher do specialized needs create specialized requirements. I have been told by many people much smarter than me that this is horribly misguided, though, so perhaps I&#039;m mistaken :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>To me, this is another example of a covert discrimination â€” Joe Harlessâ€™s term for an apparently simple case (â€?learn a languageâ€?) that conceals a number of different situations requiring different actions.</em></p>
<p>This is a discussion we&#8217;ve been having at the office &#8212; how much of any language learner&#8217;s needs, regardless of their goal, is the same? I tend to think that every language student through at least the intermediate levels need basically the same things, and only as you reach higher do specialized needs create specialized requirements. I have been told by many people much smarter than me that this is horribly misguided, though, so perhaps I&#8217;m mistaken :)</p>
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