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	<title>Comments on: How to learn, or, think and do</title>
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	<description>Dave Ferguson&#039;s interests, ideas, notions, tangents</description>
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		<title>By: Ken Allan</title>
		<link>http://www.daveswhiteboard.com/archives/2570/comment-page-1#comment-14391</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Allan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 19:26:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Kia ora e Dave.

Yes but coding is still concerned for that&#039;s the end of a process - not the only process. As we agreed, there are a lot of factors to be considered when estimating development times, and yes, pedagogy and well-design of learning modules are just two of them.

Catchya later</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kia ora e Dave.</p>
<p>Yes but coding is still concerned for that&#8217;s the end of a process &#8211; not the only process. As we agreed, there are a lot of factors to be considered when estimating development times, and yes, pedagogy and well-design of learning modules are just two of them.</p>
<p>Catchya later</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.daveswhiteboard.com/archives/2570/comment-page-1#comment-14387</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 11:47:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ken, I had in mind a lot more than coding.  Coding is the easiest part of it, in fact.  To the extent that it&#039;s procedural, it&#039;s pretty straightforward.  The ease of so-called authoring tools, however, often gives a false sense of accomplishment.

&quot;Oh, see, it&#039;s easy to create a multiple-choice question.&quot;  &quot;I can use this for a drag-and-drop.&quot;  

I remember a very serious debate at a client site between two &quot;learning specialists.&quot;  The heart of the matter: what was the correct ratio of &quot;lecture screens&quot; to &quot;testing screens?&quot;  In other words, they seemed to feel there was a golden heuristic -- ten to one, eight to to -- that was part of a recipe for learning.

They seemed surprised when I asked what the &lt;i&gt;topic&lt;/i&gt; was.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken, I had in mind a lot more than coding.  Coding is the easiest part of it, in fact.  To the extent that it&#8217;s procedural, it&#8217;s pretty straightforward.  The ease of so-called authoring tools, however, often gives a false sense of accomplishment.</p>
<p>&#8220;Oh, see, it&#8217;s easy to create a multiple-choice question.&#8221;  &#8220;I can use this for a drag-and-drop.&#8221;  </p>
<p>I remember a very serious debate at a client site between two &#8220;learning specialists.&#8221;  The heart of the matter: what was the correct ratio of &#8220;lecture screens&#8221; to &#8220;testing screens?&#8221;  In other words, they seemed to feel there was a golden heuristic &#8212; ten to one, eight to to &#8212; that was part of a recipe for learning.</p>
<p>They seemed surprised when I asked what the <i>topic</i> was.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Allan</title>
		<link>http://www.daveswhiteboard.com/archives/2570/comment-page-1#comment-14383</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Allan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 06:25:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daveswhiteboard.com/?p=2570#comment-14383</guid>
		<description>Kia ora Dave!

And thanks for replying to my comment. I agree with you that there are a lot of factors to be considered when estimating development times. But isn&#039;t that always the case where coding is concerned? There&#039;s the specifications, the planning and the coding to put a too simple summary for it. Development of elearning really is no different from much of that.

I have a lot of questions, and I don&#039;t expect you to answer them. But, for instance, how does a software developer estimate the time taken to develop what they do? Obviously this has been done in the past, and Project Management will have a few pointers to offer us with this I&#039;m sure.

For me, the most interesting factor is one you mentioned. &quot;How well?&quot; How that is quantified or estimated is in itself problematic. There are many parameters to decide the &#039;wellness&#039; of any learning that is developed. My short answer to that, of course, is, &quot;Does it teach effectively?&quot; It&#039;s amazing how effective simplicity can be when it comes to teaching and learning. It&#039;s amazing how convoluted and intricate an elearning development plan can be when the developer wants to earn more cash.

Nuff said?

Catchya later</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kia ora Dave!</p>
<p>And thanks for replying to my comment. I agree with you that there are a lot of factors to be considered when estimating development times. But isn&#8217;t that always the case where coding is concerned? There&#8217;s the specifications, the planning and the coding to put a too simple summary for it. Development of elearning really is no different from much of that.</p>
<p>I have a lot of questions, and I don&#8217;t expect you to answer them. But, for instance, how does a software developer estimate the time taken to develop what they do? Obviously this has been done in the past, and Project Management will have a few pointers to offer us with this I&#8217;m sure.</p>
<p>For me, the most interesting factor is one you mentioned. &#8220;How well?&#8221; How that is quantified or estimated is in itself problematic. There are many parameters to decide the &#8216;wellness&#8217; of any learning that is developed. My short answer to that, of course, is, &#8220;Does it teach effectively?&#8221; It&#8217;s amazing how effective simplicity can be when it comes to teaching and learning. It&#8217;s amazing how convoluted and intricate an elearning development plan can be when the developer wants to earn more cash.</p>
<p>Nuff said?</p>
<p>Catchya later</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.daveswhiteboard.com/archives/2570/comment-page-1#comment-14372</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 12:54:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daveswhiteboard.com/?p=2570#comment-14372</guid>
		<description>Hi, Gina; thanks for joining in.

I worked in corporate training / learning for decades, and I agree with you on several fronts.

One (maybe not obvious from the post) is that it can be very good to &quot;get some real numbers.&quot;  It&#039;s hard in the middle of a project to think about what you&#039;re doing, how long it&#039;s taking, and whether you&#039;re getting the results.  It&#039;s valuable after the fact if you can analyze that data and use it to improve results.

Second, you&#039;re talking about your own organization and its own work, not a theoretical average from all over the map.

As for stakeholders--yes, I do think some stakeholders are at high strength for turning an estimate or a rule of thumb into a law of nature.  One way I can think of to deflect that is to look at the stakeholder&#039;s area of expertise and try to find analogies--situations in which a simplistic average is, well, simplistic.

If I knew how to do that consistently, I&#039;d probably have a book on that topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Gina; thanks for joining in.</p>
<p>I worked in corporate training / learning for decades, and I agree with you on several fronts.</p>
<p>One (maybe not obvious from the post) is that it can be very good to &#8220;get some real numbers.&#8221;  It&#8217;s hard in the middle of a project to think about what you&#8217;re doing, how long it&#8217;s taking, and whether you&#8217;re getting the results.  It&#8217;s valuable after the fact if you can analyze that data and use it to improve results.</p>
<p>Second, you&#8217;re talking about your own organization and its own work, not a theoretical average from all over the map.</p>
<p>As for stakeholders&#8211;yes, I do think some stakeholders are at high strength for turning an estimate or a rule of thumb into a law of nature.  One way I can think of to deflect that is to look at the stakeholder&#8217;s area of expertise and try to find analogies&#8211;situations in which a simplistic average is, well, simplistic.</p>
<p>If I knew how to do that consistently, I&#8217;d probably have a book on that topic.</p>
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		<title>By: gminks</title>
		<link>http://www.daveswhiteboard.com/archives/2570/comment-page-1#comment-14371</link>
		<dc:creator>gminks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 12:28:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Isn&#039;t the answer always: it depends? Right now my org is trying to quantify this by having people track what they do when they develop a course. The idea is to get some real numbers. We do technical training, and here&#039;s where I see the &quot;it depends&quot; come in: How new is the product, how experienced is the developer, is the product released, do we have the product, do we have all the components required to develop training for the product, do we have other software that may be affected by the product to create a realistic environment, are the developers skilled in these other products...
Well you get the idea. I understand the need for some number, but the minute you give the stakeholders a number, won&#039;t they hold you to that number no matter the circumstances?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t the answer always: it depends? Right now my org is trying to quantify this by having people track what they do when they develop a course. The idea is to get some real numbers. We do technical training, and here&#8217;s where I see the &#8220;it depends&#8221; come in: How new is the product, how experienced is the developer, is the product released, do we have the product, do we have all the components required to develop training for the product, do we have other software that may be affected by the product to create a realistic environment, are the developers skilled in these other products&#8230;<br />
Well you get the idea. I understand the need for some number, but the minute you give the stakeholders a number, won&#8217;t they hold you to that number no matter the circumstances?</p>
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